An Interview with Prof. Dr. Ümran Ay on Learning Persian

Ozan Dur: In the 2014–2015 academic year, I began studying Persian as an elective course with my professor, Ümran Ay, at Istanbul 29 Mayıs University. This experience led me toward the Middle East. After one year of Persian education, I traveled to Iran for educational purposes. When I returned, I took the YDS language exam, and in 2017 I wrote an article about learning Persian. It was intended as a practical guide, and it still ranks first on Google. My professor Ümran Ay has had a great influence on me, and I can never thank her enough. Learning Persian opened many wonderful doors for me. It enabled me to guide many young people and gain a deeper understanding of Iran. Professor Ümran's contribution is part of all these beautiful experiences.

Being able to interview her is very meaningful to me personally. I hope this interview remains for generations to come and that those who read it will take something valuable from it.

Dear Professor Ümran, could you introduce yourself to our readers?

Ümran Ay: Hello. I was born in Uşak, where I completed my primary, middle, and high school education. I received my bachelor's degree in Turkish Language and Literature from Marmara University. I then completed my master's and doctoral studies in Old Turkish Literature under the supervision of Professor Nihat Öztoprak. I have been teaching at the same university since 2012.

Ozan Dur: Professor, you were my teacher, and we were very fortunate to have you. Could you tell us about your own teachers and your educational journey?

Ümran Ay: Please, you are too kind. I was the fortunate one because I had attentive and dedicated students like you. Foreign-language courses often begin with many students, but the numbers decrease in the second and third levels. You showed the patience to continue studying the language for four semesters. For that reason, I think you are the ones who deserve congratulations.

I had a very good educational experience in both high school and university. I had many valuable teachers. I believe the value of our teachers comes both from the importance they attach to our nation, our civilization, and us as young people, and from the joy of learning they inspire in us. In my view, teachers who awaken curiosity in their students and instill a love of reading and learning are successful and valuable teachers.

After completing my undergraduate education, I continued teaching in the Ministry of National Education while also pursuing my academic career. I came to love literature, especially Old Turkish Literature, or Divan Literature, so I would say that my journey continued in that direction.

The sincere approach of our teachers and the enthusiasm with which they taught their lessons have always been an example for us. However, as Nurettin Topçu once said, “Entering the classroom with the awareness with which one enters a place of worship, and teaching with a sense of worship”—I do not think we have yet fully reached that state. I believe we still have a long way to go.

Ozan Dur: Professor, I took Persian from you as an elective course. As I remember, we did not have many class hours per week. After class, I would constantly try to read and learn new vocabulary. In one year, with only two to four hours of Persian instruction per week, I learned a great deal from you. What are your thoughts on the number of hours allocated to Persian as an elective course?

Ümran Ay: My dear Ozan, the year you studied Persian was probably my first or second year as a Persian instructor. Those were the years when I taught the fastest! Now my students stop me and say, “Professor, you are going too fast!”

Yes, we had three hours of class per week. If we assume an average of 15 weeks per semester, that means we had approximately 45 hours of instruction per semester. Of course, that is far too little time to learn a foreign language.

The similarity between Persian and Turkish in sentence structure, along with our shared vocabulary, made it possible to learn relatively quickly. Despite having only 45 hours, we completed all the major grammar topics in the first semester and moved on to reading simple texts in the second. I found that students understood the language better when they worked directly with texts.

I believe that universities should offer the languages of peoples and regions with which we have cultural and political relations, particularly in the social sciences. These languages should be available as elective courses, especially alongside Ottoman Turkish.

Departments such as Turkish Language and Literature, History, and Geography could offer elective courses in languages such as Greek, Armenian, Persian, Arabic, Russian, Bulgarian, German, Spanish, and Italian. This would enable students to read the archives of these peoples in their original languages.

Ozan Dur: If you compare Persian education in Turkey in earlier periods with the situation today, what can you tell us?

Ümran Ay: If you look at the Council of Higher Education's website today, you will see that Persian Language and Literature is taught at the undergraduate level at eight different universities in Turkey. Considering that there is not even a single university in Iran that properly offers undergraduate-level Turkish Language and Literature education, this is a very good figure.

During my time in Iran between 2010 and 2012, I prepared a report, with the support of our consulate, for the establishment of a Turkish Language and Literature department at the undergraduate level at the University of Tehran. The report was approximately 100 pages long and was prepared in both Persian and Turkish.

They probably told us, “All right,” but apparently the report was put on a shelf. I do not know what eventually happened to it. Following up on such matters is, of course, the responsibility of higher authorities.

If by “earlier period” you mean the Ottoman period, there is hardly any comparison. Ottoman education was very advanced—not only in Persian, but also in Arabic and, from the 19th century onward, in French, when French education became more systematically established.

Education in these languages was of such a high level that scientific works written in them, as well as translations and commentaries, were taught in Ottoman madrasas directly from the original languages.

Ozan Dur: You were in your second year of university when I was born, and I began studying Persian with you when I was in my second year of university. It is an interesting coincidence, Professor. Could you tell us about the university environment during the period when you were studying? What other languages were available while you were studying Turkish Language and Literature, and could you tell us a little about that period?

Ümran Ay: In our time, Persian was the only foreign language available. We took Persian as a compulsory elective for only one semester, two hours per week. Our teacher was good, but unfortunately the language did not stay with us. When you do not use a language, you gradually forget it and your knowledge becomes rusty over time.

During my master's and doctoral studies, we took Persian courses from Professor Orhan Bilgin. Those classes were also very productive. Our interest in Persian actually began to develop through experiences like these.

Ozan Dur: Persian and Turkish share a common historical background, Professor. While there were people writing in Turkish in Iran, there were also people writing in Persian in the Ottoman Empire. Three Sufi poets who greatly influenced the Ottoman literary tradition wrote poetry in Arabic, Persian, and Turkish. These two languages were also taught at the Enderun Palace School. Did you encounter any interesting information concerning the relationship between Turkish and Persian in literature?

Ümran Ay: As you said, the historical background and cultural relationship between the two languages go back many centuries.

In Iran today, Rumi's Masnavi, Hafez's Divan, and Saadi's Gulistan and Bustan are still highly valued and widely read. If we were to ask which three works are among the most important works of Persian literature for us, I am sure these works would be at the top of the list.

In the Ottoman Empire, the tradition of Shahnameh recitation and commentary, the institution of Masnavi recitation, the Mevlevi tradition, the works of Saadi, Attar's Pand-nama, and the works of Mulla Jami were among the works that nourished our classical literature in particular and Turkish literature in general.

While I was in Iran, I had the opportunity to attend some classes as a guest at the Department of Persian Language and Literature at the University of Tehran. I was surprised to see that they studied Hafez through the commentary of Sudi of Bosnia, which is a Turkish work, and Rumi through the commentary of Reynold Nicholson, which was translated from English into Persian.

The efforts of the professors to provide their students with the best possible scholarship, without falling into partisanship, were truly admirable.

Ozan Dur: What can you tell us about the use and importance of Persian among Turkish literary figures during the classical period?

Ümran Ay: Classical-period Turkish literary figures, poets, and writers—and even people from other professions who were neither poets nor writers—received a good education in Persian and Arabic from a young age. This enabled them to use a rich and sophisticated language in their works.

Words of Eastern and Western origin that had entered Anatolia and become established in the language of the people were increasingly regarded as natural parts of Turkish.

The Ottoman language was, in a sense, a language that nourished an enormous cultural geography like a mighty flowing river. Whether words such as ikram (hospitality/generosity), davet (invitation), kervan (caravan), dolap, sevda (love), hürriyet (freedom), milliyet (nationality), akıl (reason), fikir (idea), gazete (newspaper), iskele (pier), menü (menu), and liste (list) came from one language or another, they were considered part of our language and our cultural wealth.

There could hardly be a more natural outcome.

Ozan Dur: Professor, I think knowing Persian is also important for understanding Turkish and Ottoman Turkish. Learning Persian can also help us understand modern Turkish better. Could you explain the role of Persian in understanding Turkish?

Ümran Ay: Let us put it this way: Today, I do not think we necessarily need to spend several years of our lives studying foreign-language textbooks or preparing for exams such as YDS in order to learn Arabic, Persian, English, German, and so on at an academic level.

Today, applications such as ChatGPT, artificial intelligence solutions, and the technologies of the very near future can transmit words almost instantly, even with their pronunciation, without the need for you to speak them yourself. In other words, foreign languages are no longer indispensable for basic communication.

However, learning a foreign language and knowing how to read books in that language may increasingly become something people pursue not out of daily necessity, but out of curiosity and enjoyment—if they wish to encounter other cultures, read their literary works, and discover their art, music, and intellectual traditions.

Rather than speaking of the role of Persian in “understanding Turkish,” I think it would be more accurate to speak of its role in the richness of Turkish.

After all, we have belonged to the same religious civilization for hundreds of years. This is a very important common bond. On the other hand, Persians and Turks shared the world of the Great Seljuks, and the Turks—including the Great Seljuks—were descendants of peoples who traveled from Central Asia to Anatolia and eventually reached the gates of Belgrade.

Our common ground in this geography is extensive, and our mutual interaction has been equally deep.

We never became Persianized, but as the heirs of an empire, we enriched Turkish through our contact with the languages of all the civilizations with which we interacted, especially Arabic and Persian.

Ozan Dur: As the final question of our interview, what advice would you give to our young people? We would like to hear your recommendations about learning Persian and learning languages in general.

Ümran Ay: I think the best thing we can do is repeat the advice our own teachers gave us. We should try to move forward sincerely and consistently in line with our goals and ideals.

Young people should not be afraid of learning languages. When I could not get the grade I wanted in English, I was disappointed at the time. I thought, “Perhaps I will never be able to learn a foreign language.”

Thankfully, Persian came to my aid and helped me overcome that fear.

I am sure our friends also have a foreign language that they are naturally drawn to. I recommend that they search for it and find it.

There is a Sufi saying: “Those who find are only those who search.”

I would also advise them never to forget the importance of possessing the three forms of selim: akl-ı selim, kalb-i selim, and zevk-i selim—sound reason, a sound heart, and refined taste.

As our late Professor Haluk Dursun used to say, possessing—or being able to develop—sound reason, a sound heart, and refined taste is one of the finest forms of human maturity.

God willing, may we carry this trust until our last breath, having attained this maturity.

Thank you.

Prof. Dr. Ümran Ay & Ozan Dur